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 Post subject: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:07 am 
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Trolling wowhead for the first time since forever I came across this little gem, particularly interested in the new "Mastery" stat.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... pageNo=1#0

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As many of you know from panels at last year’s BlizzCon and posts here on the forums since then, Cataclysm will bring about major changes to familiar character stats such as Intellect, Armor Penetration, Defense, and others, ultimately designed to make the effects of stats more easily understandable and make gear choices more interesting. As these changes will have a significant impact on how stats work and relate to one another, today we wanted to offer you a closer look at exactly what’s in store and explain some of the rationale before Cataclysm arrives.

The most obvious question these changes raise is "Why are stats being changed, and why now?" As the game has matured, we've run into increasingly complex issues with the current stat system. Many stats are inherently confusing, and the way they interrelate can feel convoluted. Attack Power, for example, currently translates to damage, but so does Armor Penetration. Defense provides five different statistical benefits of varying utility. Mana regeneration involves understanding multiple stats and rules and often ends up being irrelevant anyway. In addition, the difference between a "good stat" for a class and a "bad stat" can be extreme. Some casters want Haste but not Crit; hunters want Armor Penetration but not Haste. There are other overarching issues, as well, such as Intellect not being very exciting for casters despite it being a core stat -- and these are just a few examples.

Our ultimate goal is make gear a more interesting (and less confusing) choice by making each stat valuable to more players. While the reasoning behind some of the following changes may be clear, we understand that you may have questions about some of the less obvious alterations, and we'll do our best to answer any questions you may have here on the forums.


What You’ll See on Gear


Stamina - Because of the way we will be assigning Strength, Agility, and Intellect, non-plate wearers will end up with more Stamina than before. Health pools will be much closer between plate-wearers and other classes.

Spirit - Come Cataclysm, this stat should only be found on healing gear. Non-healing casters will have other systems in place to regenerate mana, and we are designing special solutions for Elemental shaman and Balance druids who often share gear with healers (more on this below). Raid buffs that currently boost Spirit (such as Blessing of Kings) will only boost the primary stats of Stamina, Strength, Agility, and Intellect. We are also likely changing the five-second rule and other quirks of the current regen system.

Intellect - Intellect will now grant Spell Power (more on this below). Intellect will also provide less mana than it currently does.

Haste - Haste will become more attractive for melee classes by allowing them to recover resources such as energy and runes more quickly. Our intention is for Haste to let you "do stuff" more often.

Block Rating - Block is being redesigned to scale better. Blocked attacks will simply hit for 30% less damage. Block rating will improve your chance to block, though overall block chances will be lower than they are today.

Parry - Parry no longer provides 100% avoidance and no longer speeds up attacks. Instead, when you parry an attack, it and the next attack will each hit for 50% damage (assuming they hit at all). In other words, Dodge is a chance to avoid 100% of the damage from one attack, Parry is a chance to avoid 50% of the damage from two attacks, and Block is a chance to avoid 30% of the damage from one attack.

Mastery - This is a new stat that will allow players to become better at whatever makes their chosen talent tree cool or unique. It's directly tied to talents, so what you gain from improving this stat is entirely dependent upon your class and the talent specialization you choose. We’ll talk more about specific Mastery benefits in the future.

Armor - The way Armor mitigates damage is not changing, but the Armor stat has been rebalanced to mirror changes to the armor curve in Cataclysm. As a result, bonus Armor will go down slightly overall. We are also changing the mitigation difference among armor types so that plate doesn’t offer so much more protection than mail, leather, and cloth.

Resilience - This will only affect damage done by players and critical damage done by players. It will not impact crit chance, mana drains, or other such effects.

Strength, Agility, Hit Rating, Expertise, and Critical Strike Rating - These will all still appear on gear as well. Aside from situations mentioned elsewhere in this list, in general these will function similarly to how they do now, though the details -- such as how much Hit Rating you might need to effectively combat high-level creatures (more on this below) -- are likely to change.


Being Removed from Items


Attack Power - This stat will no longer be present on most items as a flat value, though it will still show up on some process. Strength and Agility, which will be present on items, will grant the appropriate amount of Attack Power (generally 2 Attack Power per point of Strength or Agility) depending upon which stat a particular class favors. Agility may provide less Crit than it currently does.

Spell Power - Spell Power is another stat that you'll no longer see present on most items. Instead, as mentioned above, Intellect will grant Spell Power. One exception is that caster weapons will still have Spell Power. This allows us to make weapons proportionately more powerful for casters in the same way they are for melee classes.

Armor Penetration - This stat will no longer be present on items. Armor Penetration will still exist in talents and abilities.

Shield Block Value - This stat will no longer be present on items, since the amount blocked is always proportional to the amount of damage done. Talents and other effects might still modify the damage-reduction percentage from 30%, however.


Going Away Completely


MP5 - This stat will be removed from the game completely. Holy paladins and Restoration shaman will be redesigned to benefit from Spirit.

Defense - Defense is being removed from the game entirely. Tanking classes should expect to become uncrittable versus creatures just by shifting into Defensive Stance, Frost Presence, Bear Form, or by using Righteous Fury.

Spell Ranks - Spell ranks will cease to exist. All spells will have one rank and will scale appropriately with level. The levels at which you can learn certain spells are being changed in order to fill in some of the gaps, and we will be introducing some new spells to learn along the way as well.

Weapon Skill - This stat will be removed from the game completely. Classes will start with all the weapon skills they need to know and will not need to improve them.


What Else You Should Know


Combat ratings - All ratings will be much harder to "cap out" at maximum gear levels. Ratings will be steeper in Cataclysm, and creatures in later tiers of content will be harder to hit or crit, similar to how level-83 mobs are harder to hit or crit than level-80 mobs.

Reforging - While these changes will go a long way to making a wider variety of stats more attractive, we understand that sometimes you simply don’t want more Hit Rating on your gear or you’d rather have more Haste than more Crit. In Cataclysm, we are going to give players a way to replace stats on gear as part of the existing profession system. As a general rule of thumb, you’ll be able to convert one stat to 50% of another stat. While some conversions (like converting Stamina to Strength) won’t be permitted, the goal is to let you customize your gear more.

Gems - We are changing the gem colors of a few stats as a result of these adjustments. For example, Hit is likely to be blue instead of yellow. We'll have more details on this in the future.

Changes to Existing Gear

As with previous expansions, we plan to roll out these changes and modify all existing gear shortly before Cataclysm launches, though it’s still too early to say exactly when. For the most part, the gear you have will still be good for you, though there will be exceptions, such as warriors using leather and mail armor.

If you are a tank (druids excepted), expect to see:

* No more Defense on gear. Existing Defense becomes Dodge, Parry, or Block Rating.
* No more Block Value on gear. Existing Block Value becomes Block Rating.
* You’ll have as much Stamina as you’re used to, though you may notice your tanking plate has a bit less Stamina than a comparable piece of DPS plate, since we tend to take the gem budget out of your most attractive stat.
* Bonus Armor on gear will go down slightly.



If you are a melee DPS class, druid tank, or hunter, expect to see:

* A lot more Stamina. Bear-form Stamina scaling will be lowered as a result.
* Strength if you wear plate. Agility if you wear mail or leather.
* Existing Attack Power becomes Agility and Stamina.Armor Penetration becomes Haste or Crit.
* No Intellect on melee gear. Hunters won’t need Intellect since they will no longer use mana. Shaman and Retribution paladins will get mana and spell damage in other ways.



If you are a DPS caster, expect to see:

* A lot more Stamina.
* All of your Spell Power converted to Intellect and Stamina.
* No Spirit. You won’t miss Spirit, though, because you won’t need it for DPS or mana regen.



If you are a healer, expect to see:

* A lot more Stamina.
* All of your Spell Power converted to Intellect and Stamina.
* Spirit instead of MP5. You’ll probably be happy with Spirit, though, because mana regen is going to matter more than it does currently. Healing paladins and shaman will benefit more from Spirit than they do currently.



If you are a Balance druid or Elemental shaman:

* You will still share gear with Restoration druids and shaman.
* Your gear will have Spirit on it. It won’t have Hit on it.
* You will have a talent that converts Spirit to Hit. We will adjust talents accordingly so that you want about as much Spirit as, say, a warlock wants Hit.
* Hit on rings and other such gear will still benefit you.
* Raid buffs will no longer boost Spirit, so you shouldn’t find yourself unexpectedly over the Hit cap because of buffs.



Many lower-level items with nonsensical combinations of stats, such as Agility and Spirit, will be changed. We're also updating quest rewards, trade skills, and loot drops to support better itemization for class builds that weren't widely available or used prior to The Burning Crusade (such as Balance druids).

We're aware this is a lot of information to take in, but this is still only a piece of the larger picture, and many of these changes rely on integration with other systems we haven't yet discussed in detail. In the weeks and months ahead, we'll continue to tell you more about these changes, along with all of the new and exciting features we have planned for Cataclysm.

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:19 am 
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Noticed this, I was pretty meh about the stat changes to begin with, and still unsure how it'll turn out. I think the parry / block changes are very nice. Differentiates parry from dodge which is good, and means spreading out the damage which is cool, and makes it a real choice rather than just "which is on lower DR, parry or dodge, take some of that" etc

Will be interested to see how the spirit --> hit works out for elemental and moonkin, but..

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:39 am 
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I wonder how they are going to implement it (and when)

I would assume the patch before, they will convert all the stuff to the appropriate stat... its going to be weird

I reckon they are going to have to do stuff like diminishing returns on stats.... otherwise I'm convinced stuff will be hitting for crazy damage in certain situations...

e.g. atm vs a normal caster I can crit for about 5-6k... after changes I wonder if that would up to 8-9k, but then due to losing Arp, my crits will drop to 1-2k on plate...

hmm! unless mastery will take over from Arp... (can you 'gem' mastery??)

wut


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:59 am 
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When I first heard about these changes I figured it was just another "dumbing down" of gear choices, but it doesn't seem so bad based on what's written in that post. Currently Demonology Warlocks value +hit, spellpower, haste, spirit, crit, intellect and stamina on our gear, making gear choices pretty complicated. In Cataclysm we're only going to need +hit, haste, crit, intellect and stamina, so we drop from 7 DPS stats to 5, but on the other hand the value of +hit is going to be far more variable than it is now.

I'm wondering if they're going to put in some form of diminishing returns for +hit. If they're intending that the hit cap varies based on the target and that the cap should be difficult to achieve, they're going to have to make it less critical that you reach that cap. Currently, being hit capped is (for most DPS classes) your first priority. Unless they want us to gem nothing but +hit they're going to have to make being hit capped more optional than it is at the moment.

In some ways I like that whether gear is suited for you is going to be far more obvious. The downside is that gear which previously would have been "okay" for a class is now likely to be worthless, which may lead to more sharding... But then again, if there's less gear with stats that some classes consider "worthless", that might lead to less sharding... I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:56 pm 
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They claim to have some sort of level process of a boss so that its not just health and damage that scales with encounters... no specifics yet on it though

Quote:
User question:
If I'm reading this correctly are you saying that with each tier, each boss level increases by 1? As an example:

Naxx 25 - Boss level = 83
Ulduar 25 - Boss Level = 84
ToC 25 - Boss Level = 85
ICC 25 - Boss Level = 86

Meaning are we trying to gain my hit and expertise with each tier?

Blue Response:

We’re not sure yet how bosses will “level up” in subsequent tiers. The general idea is that currently you need a specific amount of hit and after that hit becomes worthless even though more hit goes onto higher level gear. Furthermore it creates odd balance problems when you are critting and avoiding the most powerful bosses by more than you did the earliest bosses (because your gear keeps getting better while they just get more health and damage).


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Arena Junkie
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Mastery System Preview

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/29/1282973 ... eview.html


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:08 pm 
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I thought you didnt read cataclysm spoilers, ashee! :O

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:14 pm 
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I got bored and things have changed since TBC/WOTLK

am considering quitting at the end of this expansion, and moving to SC2. No idea if it will happen, but its part of my plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:12 pm 
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lolwut

Dispel mechanics change

Quote:

We wanted to introduce some of the changes to dispel mechanics coming in Cataclysm. Our goals were to make dispelling a little less trivial to do in PvP, and to make sure there is more equity in dispel capabilities among healers in both PvP and PvE.

Within the system, there are currently five types of dispellable (or curable) buffs and debuffs: curse, disease, poison, defensive magic, and offensive magic. An example of defensive magic dispelling would be using a dispel to free a polymorphed ally, while offensive magic dispelling would be utilizing a dispel ability to strip away an enemy’s buff or heal-over-time (HoT) spell. The main distinction between these two types is in whether or not you can target an enemy with your dispel.

In Cataclysm each healing class will be getting three out of the five types of dispels, with one of these always being a defensive dispel magic. This design makes sure that finding a healer with the ability to remove magic isn’t restrictive in building teams for Arenas or rated Battlegrounds. It also allows the encounter designers to assume, when designing dungeon or raid fights, that every group can dispel magic.

In addition, we're making the opportunity cost (what the player could have accomplished with different actions) for dispelling a bit steeper. We think the cost is too low for three reasons: 1) The actual mana cost is low. 2) You never waste a dispel. If you try to dispel a debuff that isn’t there then the dispel just won’t go off. 3) We have spells that remove debuffs with minimal input on the part of the player. In Cataclysm we are raising the mana costs, making it possible to waste mana by casting a dispel when there is nothing to dispel, and removing Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison from the game. With these changes in mind, we are working to plan dungeon and raid encounters where dispels aren’t in constant demand or spammed in order to be successful, though some need for dispels will still be a part of the design.

As previously mentioned, we are providing three dispel capabilities to all healing classes as follows:


* Druids will be able to dispel defensive magic, curses, and poison.
* Paladins will be able to dispel defensive magic, diseases, and poison.
* Priests will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and disease.
* Shaman will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and curses.


There is some trade-off that is being made in making these changes and we wanted to expand on this further.


* Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.
* All shaman will lose dispel disease and dispel poison in exchange for Restoration gaining dispel magic.
* Restoration shaman, Restoration druids, and Holy paladins will need to talent into their defensive magic dispels.
* Shadow priests won’t be able to remove disease in Shadowform.
* Mage, hunter, and warlock will retain their current dispel mechanics.
* Body and Soul remains the same, and basically any dispel mechanic not mentioned above is currently planned to remain as it is.
* When possible, we’d like to combine dispels into a single action. For example, the druid ability to dispel curses and poisons might be a single spell with a Restoration talent that also allows it to dispel magic. This part of the design isn’t finalized, however.


As with all of our Cataclysm previews, keep in mind that any of these decisions could change when we’re in beta.


So basically if your healer gets CCed its GOODBYE! :D

methinks rets/prots, enh/elem shamans and shadow priests just groaned

Although.... enh/ele shamans are not mentioned in terms of purge o_O


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:51 pm 
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ash wrote:
lolwut

Dispel mechanics change

Quote:

We wanted to introduce some of the changes to dispel mechanics coming in Cataclysm. Our goals were to make dispelling a little less trivial to do in PvP, and to make sure there is more equity in dispel capabilities among healers in both PvP and PvE.

Within the system, there are currently five types of dispellable (or curable) buffs and debuffs: curse, disease, poison, defensive magic, and offensive magic. An example of defensive magic dispelling would be using a dispel to free a polymorphed ally, while offensive magic dispelling would be utilizing a dispel ability to strip away an enemy’s buff or heal-over-time (HoT) spell. The main distinction between these two types is in whether or not you can target an enemy with your dispel.

In Cataclysm each healing class will be getting three out of the five types of dispels, with one of these always being a defensive dispel magic. This design makes sure that finding a healer with the ability to remove magic isn’t restrictive in building teams for Arenas or rated Battlegrounds. It also allows the encounter designers to assume, when designing dungeon or raid fights, that every group can dispel magic.

In addition, we're making the opportunity cost (what the player could have accomplished with different actions) for dispelling a bit steeper. We think the cost is too low for three reasons: 1) The actual mana cost is low. 2) You never waste a dispel. If you try to dispel a debuff that isn’t there then the dispel just won’t go off. 3) We have spells that remove debuffs with minimal input on the part of the player. In Cataclysm we are raising the mana costs, making it possible to waste mana by casting a dispel when there is nothing to dispel, and removing Cleansing Totem, Abolish Disease, and Abolish Poison from the game. With these changes in mind, we are working to plan dungeon and raid encounters where dispels aren’t in constant demand or spammed in order to be successful, though some need for dispels will still be a part of the design.

As previously mentioned, we are providing three dispel capabilities to all healing classes as follows:


* Druids will be able to dispel defensive magic, curses, and poison.
* Paladins will be able to dispel defensive magic, diseases, and poison.
* Priests will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and disease.
* Shaman will be able to dispel defensive magic, offensive magic, and curses.


There is some trade-off that is being made in making these changes and we wanted to expand on this further.


* Protection and Retribution paladins will lose their current ability to dispel magic.
* All shaman will lose dispel disease and dispel poison in exchange for Restoration gaining dispel magic.
* Restoration shaman, Restoration druids, and Holy paladins will need to talent into their defensive magic dispels.
* Shadow priests won’t be able to remove disease in Shadowform.
* Mage, hunter, and warlock will retain their current dispel mechanics.
* Body and Soul remains the same, and basically any dispel mechanic not mentioned above is currently planned to remain as it is.
* When possible, we’d like to combine dispels into a single action. For example, the druid ability to dispel curses and poisons might be a single spell with a Restoration talent that also allows it to dispel magic. This part of the design isn’t finalized, however.


As with all of our Cataclysm previews, keep in mind that any of these decisions could change when we’re in beta.


So basically if your healer gets CCed its GOODBYE! :D

methinks rets/prots, shamans and shadow priests just groaned


Not only removing cleansing totem and disease and poison dispelling altogether!? DKs all of a sudden move from the easiest of the melee classes for a shaman to near the top... and bloody rogues are bad enough as it is!

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:15 pm 
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You know that we dks got dispell protection in the last mini patch?

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:21 pm 
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a 5 stack of deadly poison and wound + crippling on a target? 7 GCDs to remove all of them assuming the rogue is not hitting them anymore... the mana cost for that will probably increase according to them aswell

O_O

I can't see the poisons + diseases staying the same as current anyway.

I figured DKs only got the protection when within desecration range


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Woohoo! No more having to dispel fear/poly from team mates

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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:07 pm 
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It makes me wonder how they are going to deal with CC.

Will they make everything share DR with itself?

Will double healer become more prevalent?


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 Post subject: Re: Stat/System Changes in Cataclysm
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:11 pm 
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ash wrote:
I figured DKs only got the protection when within desecration range


Nope, It's on Unholy Blight, which is applied when you Death Coil, minimum 30yd range. It's a bit of a pain to get going, but once it's up, you're sorted.

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