:D

[Friscy]

Immo, big changes!
UH's top dps was a rigid rotation, now it's a priority based one (a pretty tricky one combined with the 45% chance of refreshing a random rune on DC), really raising the skillcap.

Check again. UH is still a rotation.

Frost Deathknight seems quite fun and quite easy to screw up, though I don't think screwing it up really harms your DPS significantly. Still, playing "perfectly" is a good challenge and keeps things interesting.

Anyone who thinks that there is a rotation or a priority system is horribly wrong. You have to think ahead while watching a good addon for your runes (RuneWatch does the trick for me). That is for DW.
For 2h Frost, you have to be a ninja! Unholy presence = 0.5 sec for the effect of the last skill used to appear (any procs, etc), 0.5 sec left for you to decide what your next move is.

I am going with DW Frost for Cata.

[Commando]

Check again. UH is still a rotation.

Surely any spec that involves any degree of randomness can't be described as a rotation? Sudden Doom is a 15% chance on auto-attack, which makes it impossible to fit into a rotation. And Runic Empowerment for all DKs is a 45% chance on specific spells and activates a random rune, which again makes following a set rotation a terrible idea. Unless the DPS increase by paying attention to either of these procs isn't worth the effort, which certainly isn't the impression I get.

Anyone who thinks that there is a rotation or a priority system is horribly wrong.

If Frost DW isn't a priority system, what is it? You mention having to "think ahead while watching a good addon for your runes", but what are you thinking ahead for if not to work out your priorities? Priority system doesn't mean "you hit these abilities in this order as soon as they become available", it means "at each time when you have the possibility to make an action you decide what to do based on the following priorities".

One of the priorities with Frost DW (as I understand it) is to wait for particular runes to recharge, as in some situations doing so is better than spending runes early. That doesn't mean it isn't a priority system, it just means one of the priorities is "if X, Y and Z, do nothing".

[Friscy]

Surely any spec that involves any degree of randomness can't be described as a rotation? Sudden Doom is a 15% chance on auto-attack, which makes it impossible to fit into a rotation. And Runic Empowerment for all DKs is a 45% chance on specific spells and activates a random rune, which again makes following a set rotation a terrible idea.

Runic Corruption
Once you get Outbreak (level 81), your rotation becomes:
(Scourge Strike, Festering Strike)x2, (Scourge Strike)x6, repeat till bored to death.
You open with Outbreak and you recast it every time your diseases are about to fall (it's free so it doesn't break your rotattion). You use Dark Transformation instead of a Scourge Strike whenever possible and you use Death Coil between your strikes whenever possible as long as it doesn't override your last Runic Corruption and it doesn't make the second rune of a given type available before you could use the first (that would just break your pretty rotation).

If Frost DW isn't a priority system, what is it? You mention having to "think ahead while watching a good addon for your runes", but what are you thinking ahead for if not to work out your priorities? Priority system doesn't mean "you hit these abilities in this order as soon as they become available", it means "at each time when you have the possibility to make an action you decide what to do based on the following priorities".

A standard priority system is:
1. If <spell name> cooldown is ready, you cast it.
2. If <buff/debuff name> is down, you recast it.
3. If <proc name> is up, you cast <spell name>.
4. If nothing of the above, you cast <spell name>.

How can you compare what a Frost DK does to that?

It's easier described as something like: "Try to keep at least one of each rune on rune on cooldown while keeping 2 Frost and/or 2 Unholy runes on cooldown but try to avoid having the second Blood rune on cooldown when you are about to Frost Strike". That is more like a strategy than a priority system. There are few more rules that I try to follow while dps-ing. If you wish, I will post them. Of course, that is something that I came up with. I'm not following Elitistjerks.

[Commando]

Fair point, I wasn't aware of Runic Corruption as I don't play Unholy, but I still disagree that it's a rotation. In fact in your description of the "rotation" above you spend 1 line stating what it is, and then a further four lines describing the exceptions and what order they should be considered in while being very careful to avoid using the word "priority". What is "use Dark Transformation instead of a Scourge Strike whenever possible" if not a priority? What is "use Death Coil between your strikes whenever possible as long as it doesn't override your last Runic Corruption and it doesn't make the second rune of a given type available before you could use the first" if not a set of priorities?

Yes, you have a rotation for your rune use thanks to Runic Corruption, but non-rune abilities have to be worked in and they certainly don't follow a rotation. And since Outbreak is on a 1 minute cooldown, unless your "rotation" is one minute long you can't really put that in there either.

"Try to keep at least one of each rune on rune on cooldown while keeping 2 Frost and/or 2 Unholy runes on cooldown but try to avoid having the second Blood rune on cooldown when you are about to Frost Strike"

Keeping at least one of each rune on cooldown is a given for any Death Knight spec trying to maximise output, as is avoiding capping Runic Power. The concept of avoiding having both Blood runes on cooldown isn't really much different from Unholy trying to avoid having no Death/Unholy runes available for when Dark Transformation is ready, the only difference being that DT is predictable. I'd be interested to know why you only care about it when you're about to Frost Strike though, as I'd say you want to keep one Blood rune available pretty much all the time.

You've also avoided saying anything about which abilities you'd use if you have a choice. For example, let's say you have one target, 60 RP, 1 Death, Frost and Unholy rune and your diseases are up and have decent durations, and nothing has procced. What do you do? Looking at your bar you have a choice of Obliterate, Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast or Plague Strike (not to mention all the other available abilities). What do you do? How do you decide? If it's not a priority system and there isn't a rotation, do you just mash something at random?

It might be a more complicated priority system than most, but to say it's so complex that it's not even priority-based is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Friscy]

What is "use Dark Transformation instead of a Scourge Strike whenever possible" if not a priority? What is "use Death Coil between your strikes whenever possible as long as it doesn't override your last Runic Corruption and it doesn't make the second rune of a given type available before you could use the first" if not a set of priorities?

Yes, you have a rotation for your rune use thanks to Runic Corruption, but non-rune abilities have to be worked in and they certainly don't follow a rotation. And since Outbreak is on a 1 minute cooldown, unless your "rotation" is one minute long you can't really put that in there either.

And in 3.3.5, while Gargoyle had a 3min cooldown, people still said that it is a rotation. Can you call that a 3min rotation?
The fact that you have Dark Transformation every 30-60 seconds and an Outbreak every 60-90 seconds does not change the fact that you are using all your runes in the same order by using the same 2 strikes. DT replaces 1 Scourge Strike, Outbreak just takes up one of your free global cooldowns.
You put Death Coil between 2 of your strikes, most of the time in a free global cooldown. Then you keep doing your rotation.

You are welcome to give it a try on a target dummy (without using diseases because they will screw up your rotation unless you are on the beta with 81+ DK). Then come back and tell me that you can call that a priority system ...

Keeping at least one of each rune on cooldown is a given for any Death Knight spec trying to maximise output, as is avoiding capping Runic Power. The concept of avoiding having both Blood runes on cooldown isn't really much different from Unholy trying to avoid having no Death/Unholy runes available for when Dark Transformation becomes available, the only difference being that DT is predictable. I'd be interested to know why you only care about it when you're about to Frost Strike though, as I'd say you want to keep one Blood rune available pretty much all the time.

Dark Transformation becomes available every 40-45 seconds. There is no reason to save a rune for it. You have a ton of haste and casting it 2-3 seconds after it is available makes no difference.
I care only when I am about to Frost Strike because if I am not, I won't risk having a blood/death rune come off the cooldown from a Runic Empowerment. I can use the second Blood rune if the first will come off the cooldown soon and I want to use my last unused rune to activate my 4set bonus or when I have absolutely nothing else that I can use.

You've also avoided saying anything about which abilities you'd use if you have a choice. For example, let's say you have one target, 60 RP, 1 Death, Frost and Unholy rune and your diseases are up and have decent durations, and nothing has procced. What do you do? Looking at your bar you have a choice of Obliterate, Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast or Plague Strike (not to mention all the other available abilities). What do you do? How do you decide? If it's not a priority system and there isn't a rotation, do you just mash something at random?

Obliterate because as I said, I want to have either 1 Frost, or 1 Unholy rune (or both) that can proc from the next Runic Empowerment.

Here is a priority system:
0. Pillar of Frost and other cooldowns (trinkets, herbalism)
00. Raise Dead if you have most of your cooldowns/procs/buffs on you.
1. Outbreak if it is available and if you are about to use Obliterate soon and Blood Plague is/will be over.
2. Howling Blast (with Rime) if you are going to use Obliterate next.
3. Howling Blast (without Rime) if you are about to use Obliterate soon and Frost Fever is/will be over.
4. Plague Strike if you are about to use Obliterate soon and Blood Plague is/will be over.
5. Obliterate.
6. Blood Strike if you have a Blood rune and the other Blood/Death rune is ready or will be ready before you use your next Frost Strike.
7. Frost Strike.

The problem is that there are situations which cannot be covered in such a priority system. For example: You have 2 Frost Runes, your blood and unholy runes are unavailable and won't be available in the next 3-4 seconds. You also don't have enough Runic Power for a Frost Strike. Your diseases are up and have decent durations. If you have a Rime proc, you will use Howling Blast, if not - then you a) Blood Tap and Obliterate if you can, or b) use Howling Blast.

I am saying that it isn't a priority system because a priority system cannot cover all of those unusual cases that appear. You have to think on your feet.

[Commando]

And in 3.3.5, while Gargoyle had a 3min cooldown, people still said that it is a rotation. Can you call that a 3min rotation?

Nope, I'd call it a cooldown, and I'd say cooldowns are separate from any rotation. Maybe Outbreak can be considered a cooldown, but I certainly wouldn't class Dark Transformation that way any more than a Rogue would class Eviscerate as a cooldown. It's effectively the same thing, after all - build up five "combo points" and use your "finisher". And any time you talk about replacing something in your rotation rather than working something in around your rotation, what you've got starts to look less like a rotation and more like a priority system.

Incidentally, since you talk about diseases at level 80 breaking the rotation system, does that mean you don't think UH is a rotation at level 80? If so, why when Kapoentje said "now it's a priority based one" did you say "UH is still a rotation"? And why does Outbreak, on a one minute cooldown, make it more of a rotation?

I am saying that it isn't a priority system because a priority system cannot cover all of those unusual cases that appear. You have to think on your feet.

And what I'm saying is that unusual situations that require thinking on your feet don't make something less of a priority system. The points you outlined above will cover 95% of the situations a Frost DK will find themselves in. No priority system is 100% rigid anyway, not least because of boss mechanics.

I'm not saying Frost is easier than Unholy, I know full well that it isn't, and I know we're basically just debating semantics here. But all you seem to be doing is denigrating Unholy and making Frost out to be some incredibly complicated playstyle that's beyond the understanding of mere mortals. There's a difficulty gap, sure, but at the end of the day Frost is still just a priority system with a couple of special cases where you can probably use cooldowns to get the runes you want.

[Friscy]

If so, why when Kapoentje said "now it's a priority based one" did you say "UH is still a rotation"? And why does Outbreak, on a one minute cooldown, make it more of a rotation?

Because we are in the Cataclysm section of the forums. And because you can remove Icy Touch and Plague Strike from your action bar when fighting bosses.

And what I'm saying is that unusual situations that require thinking on your feet don't make something less of a priority system.

"The fact that I eat meat does not mean that I am not a vegetarian." - Jane (Coupling)

The points you outlined above will cover 95% of the situations a Frost DK will find themselves in. No priority system is 100% rigid anyway, not least because of boss mechanics.

Will you get a microwave that does not explode in your face 95% of the time? Or a program that does not make your PC reboot 95% of the time?

You say that if you add something to Unholy's rotation, it is no longer a rotation. On the other hand, if you add something to Frost's priority system, it is still a priority system.

I never said that it is "some incredibly complicated playstyle that's beyond the understanding of mere mortals". I just said that you need to put more thought into what your next move will be than most classes/specs. Even if you see my example priority system, you will see that 1-4 tell you to look at least 1 step ahead. You cannot decide 1 button at a time like "this is ready, I will use this".

[Commando]

And why does Outbreak, on a one minute cooldown, make it more of a rotation?

Because you can remove Icy Touch and Plague Strike from your action bar when fighting bosses.

Still not entirely sure why that makes it more of a rotation, since you'll still only be using them to start the fight or if you somehow allow them to drop off - it's just combining two buttons into one, after all.

And what I'm saying is that unusual situations that require thinking on your feet don't make something less of a priority system.

"The fact that I eat meat does not mean that I am not a vegetarian." - Jane (Coupling)

"you use Death Coil between your strikes whenever possible as long as it doesn't override your last Runic Corruption and it doesn't make the second rune of a given type available before you could use the first"
"UH is still a rotation." - Friscy (CTSamurai Forums)

You say that if you add something to Unholy's rotation, it is no longer a rotation. On the other hand, if you add something to Frost's priority system, it is still a priority system.

I could just turn that around on you, you know. If adding something to Frost's priority system makes it no longer a priority system, why when you add something to Unholy's rotation is it still a rotation?

In any case, we're just going around in circles here. We obviously have different opinions on what constitutes a rotation and a priority system. I do agree that Frost is more complicated than the average spec, I'm just not convinced it's complicated enough to make it "special".

[Friscy]

Still not entirely sure why that makes it more of a rotation, since you'll still only be using them to start the fight or if you somehow allow them to drop off - it's just combining two buttons into one, after all.

The diseases will eventually drop after 60-90 seconds. Festering Strike only makes it take at least long enough for Outbreak to come off its cooldown.

And I do agree that it is about time we stopped this

[Vecko]

Shame, was fun to see new posts at work all the time

No wait, I don't have time for this. Still lot of work to do ... must work

[Kapoentje]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUH3JQjcweM

I'll just hush now that things have quieted down.

[Beckie]

Quoting coupling almost made this thread worth reading.

[Septih]

Quoting coupling almost made this thread worth reading.

^

[Friscy]

Quoting coupling almost made this thread worth reading.

^

^

Wish I could have quoted Jeff.

[ash]

I like turtles